{"id":1815,"date":"2009-10-15T00:01:00","date_gmt":"2009-10-15T06:01:00","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/blaine.org\/sevenimpossiblethings\/?p=1815"},"modified":"2009-12-09T08:33:53","modified_gmt":"2009-12-09T14:33:53","slug":"poetry-friday-one-day-early-a-chat-with-denise-doyen-in-which-her-thoughts-on-the-ability-of-children-to-understand-sophisticated-texts-makes-me-quite-happy","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"http:\/\/blaine.org\/sevenimpossiblethings\/?p=1815","title":{"rendered":"Poetry Friday One Day Early: A Chat with Denise Doyen In Which Her Thoughts on the Ability of Children to Understand Sophisticated Texts Makes Me Quite Happy"},"content":{"rendered":"

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“A riskarascal in repose, \/ A mouse who stopped—to smell a rose. \/ ‘You there! Jam Boy!’—now he knows \/ His name, bestowed in front of all. \/ ‘You brought our scamper to a drag! \/ Dropped preycautions, raised a flag!’ \/ Jam shrugs, he laughs, mouse-scallywag, \/ Brags, ‘I’m not a-scared of anything.'”<\/em>
(Click to enlarge spread.)<\/center><\/p>\n

Yeah. Whew. That’s a long post title, but I enjoyed this conversation with debut picture book author Denise Doyen<\/strong><\/a> so much that I wanted to get your attention. Denise—who studied creative writing, poetry, design, and film direction and who directed children’s television for Disney—recently went back to school to focus on writing for children. Her first title—Once Upon a Twice<\/a><\/strong><\/em> (Random House, August 2009 — cover below), illustrated by the-seven-kinds-of-fabulous Barry Moser<\/a><\/strong>—is a cautionary tale (about both the hubris, or “furry overconfidence,” of a young mouse named Jam Boy and<\/em> the dangers of the night) in the grand tradition of nonsense verse (“clever nonsense words and rhyming verse reminiscent of Lewis Carroll’s ‘Jabberwocky,'” the publisher likes to say). And it’s dark (in regards to both dramatic action and Moser’s lush, richly-dark palette — “a marvel of nighttime beauty,” writes Publishers Weekly<\/em>) and eerie and beautiful and begs to be read aloud. Or, if you’re Kirkus<\/em>, it’s “deliciously inventive,” possessing “fresh, inventive wordplay and masterful illustrations.”<\/p>\n

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“Shuns every warning, jumps the fence! \/ Jamagination in a flurry: \/ ‘I won’t scamper! I won’t scurry! \/ A clever mousling need not worry.’ \/ Furry overconfidence. \/ Off on his own, our hero, Jam, \/ Seeks adventure—on the lam, \/ Sneaks un-aware, -afraid,
-asham’d; \/ He rambles past the haven reeds.”<\/em>
(Click to enlarge spread.)<\/center><\/p>\n

Once I read it, I went knocking at the publisher’s door to see if I could share some of the drop-dead gorgeous spreads from it, and then I found out I had the opportunity, should I be so inclined, to chat with Denise. Having read one review (very obviously, I’m a review-reading geek) that said the text would be a challenge for picture-book readers, I thought it’d be neat to chat with Denise about the book and her thoughts on that, in particular. And that would be because that statement, quite frankly, annoyed me. Denise’s response to that question (final question in this short interview) made me jump up and down and say “WOOT!” a lot. (I also hope to deliver an interview soon with Moser—SQUEE!—if I can just get around to sending him some questions.)<\/p>\n

So, let’s get right to it then, since I enjoyed reading Denise’s responses and wanted to share them with you. I thank her for stopping by this morning.<\/p>\n

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Denise<\/font><\/strong>: Good morning, 7ITBB. I am a perennial night owl\u2014definitely not a morning person. (Yawn.) But I got up bright and early especially for this interview.<\/p>\n

Jam Boy, the mouse, and I are having coffee, o.j., and lumpy Irish oatmeal.<\/p>\n

Jules<\/font><\/strong>: Mmm. Coffee. Pull me out a mug, and I’ll bring the Bailey’s! <\/p>\n

Tell me about your process in writing this — and perhaps a bit about how the idea for this came to you.<\/font><\/p>\n

Denise<\/font><\/strong>: The opening stanza for Once Upon a Twice<\/em> I wrote as text for an exercise in an illustration class. I didn\u2019t want to be an illustrator; I draw well enough but never had that \u2018extra something\u2019 that makes art come alive on the page. Still, as a writer, I thought it was respectful and important to understand the craft and concerns of the other side of a picture book. So, I took a class from Ilse Plume<\/strong><\/a>. Her prompt was to write, then illustrate, one page of the kind of book you adored as a kid. Well, I loved mysterious-sounding poems like “Jabberwocky”<\/a><\/strong> or “The Owl and The Pussycat.”<\/strong><\/a> So, out flowed this poetic nonsense quatrain.<\/p>\n

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“There’s a roil!—a coil!—a lash! \/ Sssssssnake attacks! Mousling dashes! \/ Startled squeak-<\/em>eek! A final <\/em>splash! \/ Alas. \/ Silence descends like mud a-deep. \/ All the creatures round the beach \/ Hold their breath, their tails, their screech; \/ A silly mouse too brave to teach \/ Has reached his early dead a-sleep.”<\/em>
(Click spread to enlarge.)<\/center><\/p>\n

That \u2018little exercise\u2019 stanza haunted me. For years. Every so often I\u2019d take it out and attempt to turn it into something more complete. I ended up with dozens of clever nonsense stanzas. (They\u2019re all on my computer in a file called “Stanza Soup.”) But I didn\u2019t have a story. Finally, on a mission, I took my opening stanza to Ann Whitford Paul\u2019s<\/strong><\/a> class at UCLA Extension<\/strong><\/a>, and—while the rest of the class did her wonderful assignments—Ann let me concentrate on finding my tale. She was very insistent about how to go about it: I needed a protagonist, preferably a child, and he had to have a problem or get into trouble — and then get himself out of it. He should have learned something or changed somehow by the end of the book \u2013- but I shouldn\u2019t moralize. And there had to be action and excitement and heart. “Do all that \u2013 and it will work.” Yeah, well.<\/p>\n

It took me months and months of trial-and-error (Ann saying “not yet, keep at it”) until I hit on bold, mischievous Jam Boy, and when I did, he delivered a bolt of inspiration; the core twelve stanzas of the story all came to me whoosh<\/em> in a single afternoon. I\u2019d found my book.<\/p>\n

Jules<\/font><\/strong>: Did you go through tons of drafts, by chance, to get the nonsense verse just right?<\/font><\/p>\n

Denise<\/font><\/strong>: Ha! That Stanza Soup pot is a gigantic cauldron filled to the brim with rejected contenders. I have stacks of notebooks full of research on Victorian nonsense verse, the habits of mice, archaic English, the etymology of words like “riddle,” and my own scritch-scribbled wordplay.<\/p>\n

My two writing groups (G.O.Y.A. critique group and Barbara Bottner\u2019s<\/strong><\/a> master class) patiently commented on draft after draft.<\/p>\n

I did one serious re-write with an editor who eventually, reluctantly, passed because her marketing department didn\u2019t “get” the poem. <\/p>\n

The piece was called “The Songs That Mice Sing,” “The Falderal Mice,” {and} even “Jammerwocky” during the three years I was intent on knocking out cleaner, clearer drafts. Barbara finally, helpfully, suggested “Once Upon a Twice” from the first line as a title. Then my agent, Jennifer Rofe, (despite trends toward shorter, sweeter, simpler) sought out just the right editor and sold my “dangerouse”, nonsense adventure.<\/p>\n

The most intense and rewarding revision was done with my editor at Random House, Heidi Kilgras. She and I (and the copy editor) really worked and thought over all the final choices of words, nonsense, and punctuation. There were pages written back and forth discussing em-dashes and semi-colons. Pages! I kept a detailed chart which helped me track the internal rhyme scheme (I didn\u2019t want to repeat any rhyme-vowel sounds; each stanza has its own), and I wanted a sweeping distribution of nonsense words. Both Heidi and I studied poetry in college and really love finding \u2018the perfect word.\u2019 It was a good editorial experience.<\/p>\n

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Click to enlarge slightly.<\/em><\/center><\/p>\n

Jules<\/font><\/strong>: What was it like to see Barry’s<\/strong><\/a> illustrations for your words?<\/font><\/p>\n

Denise<\/font><\/strong>: The first thing I got to see was the book designer\u2019s concept cover—taken from the title page spread in the book—that image of Jam Boy pushing aside the reeds to stare at the moon. I cried. I laughed and I cried and I screamed for my husband, Michael, to come see the wonderful realization of so much hard work by me and my team at Random House and obviously, Barry (oh amazing, fabulous, visionary Mr. Moser!). I was on cloud nine. Still am.<\/p>\n

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Jules<\/font><\/strong>: Reviews for the book have been great, but what do you say to the review that says the book’s verse is a challenge to its intended audience?<\/font> <\/p>\n

Denise<\/font><\/strong>: This is one subject where I know with dead certainty that Mr. Moser and I see eye to eye: We can, we should, we must expect the most and deliver the best to our American children.<\/p>\n

Alongside short, sunny, and adorable fare, we should make room for some full, dark, and beautiful offerings as well. I have nothing against easily-grasped picture books. My bestest writer-friend, Antoinette Portis<\/strong><\/a>, slaved over each simple line and every one-syllable word of her wonderful Not a Box<\/a><\/strong><\/em>. Believe me, I know that a simple-looking gem is not simply arrived at. I adore that book. But, there are all kinds of children out there. And some of us (surely me and Ms. Seven Impossible Things — and librarians, writers, English teachers, editors, copy editors—absolutely copy editors—poets, playwrights, etc.) inherently loved language from the moment our mothers\u2019 sang us our first lullaby. We found solace and joy in poetry \u2014 where rhyme and rhythm combined to stir our tiny souls.<\/p>\n

Abraham Lincoln, John F. Kennedy, and Martin Luther King—our greatest speech-makers and orators—they all were fascinated by words and poetry as kids, and as children each could recite extremely complicated verse by heart, whether Tennyson or the Bible. We know (because they told us so) that their early exposure to the beauty and power of language influenced and encouraged their own personal expression and their adult speechwriting.<\/p>\n

But what we don\u2019t know is where the next Robert Frost, Maya Angelou, E.B. White, or Barack Obama will come from. Where ever those youngsters are out there, I truly believe they are best served by having books like Not a Box<\/em> and Once Upon a Twice<\/em> on their local library\u2019s shelf. There is currently a kindergartener, Sage Lily, on YouTube who recites Once Upon a Twice<\/em> by heart<\/a><\/strong> with clear understanding and feeling; she learned it in three days. Sage is certainly strong evidence that the bandwidth of picture books should be wide enough to include at least a few \u2018literary\u2019 works as well. <\/p>\n

Finally (oh, geez, I\u2019m on my soapbox. And before breakfast! Sorry\u2026), take a look at these couplets from arguably our most beloved poem for children:<\/p>\n

The moon on the breast of the new-fallen snow
\nGave the lustre of mid-day to objects below<\/em><\/p>\n

and<\/p>\n

As dry leaves that before the wild hurricane fly,
\nWhen they meet with an obstacle, mount to the sky.<\/em><\/p><\/blockquote>\n

It has not mattered that a three-year-old cannot comprehend all those words or word combinations yet. She can simply look at a picture of Saint Nick and his tiny reindeer and glean meaning from the illustrations in the years before she is able to decipher the more sophisticated passages. In the meantime, she will be entertained by the general scope of the story and by the lyrical sound of the words; and that is a good… no, that is a great<\/em> introduction to our language. The golden rule we picture-book folk always hear is: a true picture book is equally dependent on its words and pictures to convey the story. Well, my words need Barry\u2019s perfect pictures for the youngest crowd to follow along. That\u2019s okay. That\u2019s exactly as it should be. <\/p>\n

(I\u2019m climbing off my soapbox now. Gonna finish my lumpy oatmeal and warm my coffee back up in the microwave. Thanks so much for inviting me.)<\/p>\n

Jules<\/font><\/strong>: Word UP<\/em>, Denise. Thanks so much for that and for stopping by. Can’t wait to see what next comes when you put pen to paper.<\/font><\/p>\n

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Laura Purdie Salas<\/strong><\/a> has the Poetry Friday Round-up this week.<\/p>\n

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ONCE UPON A TWICE. Copyright \u00a9 2009 by Denise Doyen. Illustrations \u00a9 2009 by Barry Moser. Published by Random House, New York, NY. All rights reserved.<\/em><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

“A riskarascal in repose, \/ A mouse who stopped—to smell a rose. \/ ‘You there! Jam Boy!’—now he knows \/ His name, bestowed in front of all. \/ ‘You brought our scamper to a drag! \/ Dropped preycautions, raised a flag!’ \/ Jam shrugs, he laughs, mouse-scallywag, \/ Brags, ‘I’m not a-scared of anything.’”(Click to […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":4,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[2],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-1815","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-picture-books"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"http:\/\/blaine.org\/sevenimpossiblethings\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/1815","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"http:\/\/blaine.org\/sevenimpossiblethings\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"http:\/\/blaine.org\/sevenimpossiblethings\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"http:\/\/blaine.org\/sevenimpossiblethings\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/users\/4"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"http:\/\/blaine.org\/sevenimpossiblethings\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcomments&post=1815"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"http:\/\/blaine.org\/sevenimpossiblethings\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/1815\/revisions"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"http:\/\/blaine.org\/sevenimpossiblethings\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fmedia&parent=1815"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"http:\/\/blaine.org\/sevenimpossiblethings\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcategories&post=1815"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"http:\/\/blaine.org\/sevenimpossiblethings\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Ftags&post=1815"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}